tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post4466063887812065121..comments2024-03-25T11:45:15.757+00:00Comments on The Saint Lawrence Press Blog: Fourth day within the Octave of the AssumptionRubricariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-64906776056321598202010-08-24T15:51:01.875+00:002010-08-24T15:51:01.875+00:00Ex_Fide,
I'll give it some thought, as long a...Ex_Fide,<br /><br />I'll give it some thought, as long as you don't want me to go up and down on the rope!Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-24678248398438406632010-08-24T11:59:46.903+00:002010-08-24T11:59:46.903+00:00Rubricarius,
I'd like to hear your thoughts o...Rubricarius,<br /><br />I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Spanish passion play of the Virgen Dormida and custom of the catafalque of Our Lady. Perhaps you could do a post one day and that and other theatrical, prosaic practices in liturgy, such as rose petals or a descending dove on Pentecost. That is, if you're interested enough in it!<br /><br />Bestex_fidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966214834164246079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-23016078072257168882010-08-20T16:12:24.002+00:002010-08-20T16:12:24.002+00:00"I do not know why chapters were not establis..."I do not know why chapters were not established in the USA as in Europe they were, at one time, very common and the general norm for more important churches."<br /><br />I believe, according to one of the Baltimore Councils, that they canons of cathedrals were not allowed to be erected. Supposedly, they feared that they would be a threat to the power of the Ordinary. That's what I've heard.Andre'noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-58220430272622461782010-08-20T16:04:13.885+00:002010-08-20T16:04:13.885+00:00Peter,
Thank you for that link. I agree with the...Peter,<br /><br />Thank you for that link. I agree with the writer: for those of us who are liturgically minded parish churches, even good ones, have their limitations.<br /><br />I do not know why chapters were not established in the USA as in Europe they were, at one time, very common and the general norm for more important churches.<br /><br />I fear I cannot think of any chapters that still carry out daily Office in the Roman Church but live in hope that some small Italian town somewhere has a dedicated chapter... Of course my favourite English church, the Collegiate Church of St. Peter in Westminster - Westminster Abbey - is still run as a proper Collegiate body, albeit of course a New Foundation Anglican one but it at least has Choral Evensong every day of the week except Wednesdays, with IMO the finest church choir in London.<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />In modern times (i.e. from 1903 until Heenan) Westminster Cathedral Chapter celebrated the full Office (monotoned for most of it) with Conventual Mass every day. Their standard times were 10.10 for the Little Hours & Mass; 15:15 Vespers and Compline; and, 18:00 Mattins and Lauds.<br /><br />I agree entirely with your suggestion too. Having for some years done the entire Liturgy of the Triduum, with limited resources, I know how exhausting a full day's Liturgy can be. Unless you do have duty sides, a Hebdomadarius - and another one to take over for the next week - it is all impractical. Finances are clearly a consideration, the whole system of endowment and benefices recognised the highly practical necessity that putting on a daily cycle of Liturgy has to be funded. What does one do today - look for wealthy widows or philanthropists?Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-72135975885215116822010-08-20T14:20:11.488+00:002010-08-20T14:20:11.488+00:00In Tuker and Malleson's "Handbook to Chri...In Tuker and Malleson's "Handbook to Christian and Ecclesiastical Rome" (1900) we learn that there were eighteen Roman Chapters: the four Patriarchal Basilicas and fourteen others. All of these maintained the full round of the liturgy, with more or less grandeur depending on the size and revenues of the church. The service times are recorded as Matins at between 7:45 and 8:15 a.m., depending on the time of year, and Vespers at between 3:00 and 6:15 p.m. I am assuming that in this context "Matins" refers to the Little Hours and the Capitular Mass and "Vespers" refers to Vespers, Compline, Matins, and Lauds. I could be entirely wrong about that, however, as my sources are anecdotal and I have never been able to locate a satisfactory reference that goes into any detail about the times and arrangements of the capitular services in the various churches. I do have an Ordo from S. Mary Major from some year in the late nineteenth century, and that might have some information, although I don't know how generally useful it would be.<br /><br />To the best of my knowledge, the capitular liturgies were suspended during the Second World War, and afterwards the chapters received permission to dispense with them perpetually, although my evidence for this is also anecdotal.<br /><br />In any case, I believe that there are no churches (cathedral or collegiate) that observe the entirely of the (new) Divine Office on a regular basis. The Roman Chapters (apart from the Patriarchal Basilicas) have even ceased to appoint new canons, which is somehow, I am told, related to a change in the relationship between the Holy See and the Italian government agreed to by Pope John Paul II. The use of the Divine Office (even in its 1962 form) by traditionalists is virtually non-existent.<br /><br />I would certainly support the erection of new collegiate foundations, although I think that we would have to be creative in terms of organization. There is no money available to pay a group of beneficiaries, but if volunteers could take this on, each being "on duty" once or twice a week, I think that it could be managed very nicely with about twenty-eight persons (both priests and, ideally, inferior clergy, or at least laymen standing in for them). This would only be practicable in fairly urban situations at first, but we could at least make a start.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-33964637897020922732010-08-19T19:51:53.709+00:002010-08-19T19:51:53.709+00:00Unfortunately, here in the United States there hav...Unfortunately, here in the United States there have never been collegiate churches (or cathedral chapters, for that matter). Are there any collegiate or cathedral chapters anywhere in the world today who still sing the whole office every day? Even in Rome, Pius XII had discontinued the choral office in the great basilicas, except on feast days.<br /><br />For those who read French, here is an interesting article arguing that founding collegiate churches in large cities today would be a most "pastoral" (in the good sense!) thing to do:<br /><br />http://www.ceremoniaire.net/depuis1969/gitton/ciel_rome2006.htmlPeternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-32505908229002793102010-08-19T11:02:14.368+00:002010-08-19T11:02:14.368+00:00Paul,
The obligation of the rubrics for conventu...Paul, <br /><br />The obligation of the rubrics for conventual Masses apply where there are collegiate foundations or religious bound to celebrate the conventual Mass. Personally I think there should be considerably more collegiate foundations - it is really the best way for sustained proper celebration of the liturgy.<br /><br />Seminarian, <br /><br />Yes, that is the understanding that people like O'Connell held.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-44666843553733085252010-08-18T19:41:05.889+00:002010-08-18T19:41:05.889+00:00Based on the question posed by Mr. Goings, would i...Based on the question posed by Mr. Goings, would it be correct to say that every Mass offered by a priest in his parish (i.e., not in a cathedral or collegiate church) is thus a "private Mass", so long as it is not a day with the obligation to say a Mass "pro populo"?seminariannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-5808742742866079022010-08-18T18:01:26.934+00:002010-08-18T18:01:26.934+00:00Is it correct to say that the distinction between ...Is it correct to say that the distinction between the Conventual Mass and a Private Mass only applies if an obligation to the choir exists?Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-39945450795790750102010-08-18T18:01:25.937+00:002010-08-18T18:01:25.937+00:00Seminarian,
Well spotted! Thank you for pointing...Seminarian,<br /><br />Well spotted! Thank you for pointing this out. I was rather rushed for time earlier and 'tweaked' a post from last year but clearly missed that. <br /><br />Amended now, again thank you.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-12200334129439322412010-08-18T17:54:24.567+00:002010-08-18T17:54:24.567+00:00"The Conventual Mass is that of the 'resu..."The Conventual Mass is that of the 'resumed' Mass of Pentecost XI which could not be celebrated due to the occurrence of St. Joachim's feast on Sunday."<br /><br />Don't you mean to say that the Assumption was the feast celebrated on Sunday? St. Joachim this year was on Monday.seminariannoreply@blogger.com