tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post3094176847551443687..comments2024-03-25T11:45:15.757+00:00Comments on The Saint Lawrence Press Blog: Palm Sunday - Part IIRubricariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-88328795431337559122011-04-19T18:30:52.882+00:002011-04-19T18:30:52.882+00:00Paul,
Quite. So much of it is what I would des...Paul, <br /><br />Quite. So much of it is what I would describe as a form of cultic sentimentalism mixed with ignorance. An example is the Mass on Mandy Thursday evening. No one bothers to look and see that when there was at least two Masses in Rome the Eucharist was reserved from the main papal Mass in the morning and not the one for the Reconciliation of Penitents.<br /><br />A blessed Pascha to you and Mrs. Goings and to you all at St. Clements.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-54063369813429571332011-04-19T17:52:27.239+00:002011-04-19T17:52:27.239+00:00Rubricarius,
That's something I've heard ...Rubricarius,<br /><br />That's something I've heard any number of times from various liturgical enthusiasts, lay and clerical. All of these ingénues seem to believe that the midnight service celebrated in Oriental churches is the Vigil, and are invariably resistant to the idea that the Vigil was actually celebrated about nine o'clock on Saturday morning! They love to think that the Oriental rites preserved some sort of apostolic liturgical purity, which the decadent West only returned to in 1955.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-38646902121161133382011-04-19T15:42:00.066+00:002011-04-19T15:42:00.066+00:00Acolytus,
Very interesting points. Very quickly,...Acolytus,<br /><br />Very interesting points. Very quickly, as I am - as usual, running out of time for preparation for the Triduum - I too never fail to be amazed by the general ignorance in the West about the Byzantine services. Fifteen years ago the Provost of the Brompton Oratory asked me if I had 'enjoyed the Vigil' at the Russian Cathedral. I replied that I was extremely fond of the Vesperal Liturgy on Holy Saturday morning as it reminded me of an old friend. 'No' he responded 'the Vigil at midnight.' He, like so many others fail to realise that Paschal Mattins is followed by the Hours and the equivalent of <i>Resurrexi</i>. <br /><br />I do not believe for a moment Pius XII was hoodwinked or unaware of what he was doing. Indeed some of those closest to him were actively involved with the 1948 Commission.<br /><br />I would like to make some further observations when time allows - in about a week or so!Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-49614414630662460082011-04-19T15:30:46.886+00:002011-04-19T15:30:46.886+00:00I originally said some of this on the Liturgical N...I originally said some of this on the Liturgical Notes blog of Fr John Hunwicke, now of the Ordinariate of OLW.<br /><br />If nothing else, 1956 is v odd. <br /><br />On Palm Sunday there is an extra collect that appears to be an orphan final stational collect. <br /><br />The most noticeable change must be the colour change – a new idea to have two different shades of a penitential colour in one office. Pius (or his advisers - "it is not our king, it is his evil cousellors") seems to have been trying to copy a feature of the Byzantine rite of the same day. Because the Lenten colour for the Greeks is (or should be) red, they were wearing red for the Liturgy, after which follows the first service of Holy Week, the so-called Bridegroom service, (if memory serves this is an abbreviated as well as anticipated form of next day’s mattins, the vespers of the Sunday having gone astray). The services of Holy Week are all conducted in black. Thus there is a change of colour in the functions of the day, from red to something darker. This seems to have been something that the Roman authorities tried to emulate, but for artificial reasons. In the East, two different functions that were later moved together accounted for the change. In the West, functions that had been part of the same office for centuries were artificially marked off for no reason other than emulation. <br /><br />The blessing of palms before the gospel is very odd, sits wrongly and I have known it to lead to an organist mistaking the Palm Gospel procession for the beginning of the palm procession itself. Its abbreviations are all pure twentieth century invention. Comparison with other, simpler, gallican rites shows there is no precedent for what Pius did. The loss of the great (and, yes, complicated) Roman rite of blessing is a very regrettable loss and a poor example of human vandalism. <br /><br />The Good Friday ceremonial is noticeably simpler, without double changes of vesture, and no need for the cope. Pius XII would seem to have been thinking of the ordination rite in having the ministers perform the prostration ceremony at the beginning in albs without vestments. The original tradition is otherwise. The Sacrament is also carried back to the high Altar with the (white) humeral veil over the black chasuble of the priest. There is no especial difficulty in the performance <br /><br />Fr Swain, at the Episcopal Church of the Resurrection in NY city also publishes nice pictures of his pre-1955 Holy Week rite. <br /><br />http://www.resurrectionnyc.org/art/palm2007.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-47975802835579673732011-04-19T15:28:05.977+00:002011-04-19T15:28:05.977+00:00I wanted to ask you about the responsibility and m...I wanted to ask you about the responsibility and motivation (and indeed identity) of those involved in the 1956 changes to the Holy Week rites that many ‘traditionalists’ will be forced to endure this coming week. <br />I have been interested for some time in what Pius XII thought he was doing in promulgating such bizarre and far–reaching changes. It has been alleged that he was hood-winked by the writers – including Bugnini or not? – so that he never really appreciated what they were planning. Really?<br /><br />I have said before now that the curious, though picturesque, colour change in the 1956 Palm Sunday rite was inspired by the nearly similar colour change in the Byzantine rite that occurs on Palm Sunday for completely different reasons. <br />Furthermore, I have read elsewhere that Pius said of his intentions for holy week, I think before the changes were made, that he wished the new (time, at least, of the) Easter Vigil would mean the faithful of the West would become more like those of the East. That they would all celebrate the first mass of Easter ONLY at the night time vigil, then somehow ignore the immemorial custom (at least of the West) in attending mass on the Sunday morning, but later become interested again to the extent that they would return to their churches only for Vespers in the evening. (Which I don’t think the Orthodox do too much, and is in any case a view that ignores the identity of the midnight celebration Byzantines attend. Just as in the Western rite of the day, the Byzantines celebrate the ‘vesperal liturgy’ of vigil and Pascha, with another colour change, this time to white, in the day of Holy Saturday. The Xpistos Aneste rite at midnight is, wait for it, the Paschal Mattins, as formerly celebrated here late that day, and THE MORNING MASS OF EASTER DAY ITSELF moved forward to the early hours in the night). <br /><br />He seems to have been so dazzled by the customs of the East, at the expense of his own jurisdiction, that I say the pope was actively involved and not merely a spectator.<br />He may not have written or contributed to the writing of each new rite, but he would therefore appear to be actively in favour in view of his professed interests. I find his views extraordinarily naïve. The tinkerings seem not to have been directed to any purpose except that of experimenting with change for its own sake, or else paving the way for the novus ordo as the next stage.Acolytusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-31554188530893673312011-04-18T16:31:51.276+00:002011-04-18T16:31:51.276+00:00Sorry: I meant to write "Epiphany" inste...Sorry: I meant to write "Epiphany" instead of "the Easter Vigil" re: the solemn preface.Fr. John Mary, ISJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13093937327145346752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-20009010808679820322011-04-18T16:25:21.649+00:002011-04-18T16:25:21.649+00:00The pre-1955 blessing of palms makes more sense to...The pre-1955 blessing of palms makes more sense to me: having the Gospel BEFORE the blessing of palms seems to signify that this is not merely historical re-enactment but a mystical-sacramental-here and now "making present the Mystery"; the beautiful prayers of blessing and the intricacy of the rite, especially how the form is tied to the Easter Vigil (as you note) is truly a work of art. I pray restoration will take place in the 1962 form. I'll probably be dead by then!Fr. John Mary, ISJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13093937327145346752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-6247968311143001412011-04-18T15:56:49.029+00:002011-04-18T15:56:49.029+00:00Tomas,
Much in the NO is actually older, in its o...Tomas,<br /><br />Much in the NO is actually older, in its origins at least, than the 1962MR.<br /><br />I do empathise with your balanced and considered comment. However, one only has to to look at some 'TLM' people rant - one thinks of a certain end of the English alphabet person who likes using red characters - who promote the 1962 books and tear anyone who doesn't share their view to shreds. There is a saying about sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-75017816556690637812011-04-18T14:56:35.746+00:002011-04-18T14:56:35.746+00:00Thank you Rubricarius. This was a wonderful piece!...Thank you Rubricarius. This was a wonderful piece!<br /><br />I have to wonder why there is not only such distaste of those using the 1962 books but also those striving to bring back the Old Rite while being reconciled to following the Holy See. Under what circumstances would use of the Old Rite be lauded? After breaking communion with Rome?<br /><br />The consensus of the Church Fathers is that schism should never be sought. Paul himself teaches to eschew factionalism. Both he and Christ discuss admonitions of single individuals which may lead to breaking communion, but I to extrapolate these teachings is to do violence.<br /><br />I cannot say I have had the opportunity to experience anything older than the Novus Ordo save for a 1962 Low Mass - not an experience which ingratiated a great love of what came before. I am indebted to individuals like yourself to help paint me a picture of the beauty of the past ages, but the vitriol I find continuously leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Can we not let the Liturgy of the past speak for itself?Tomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871814767313979455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-88611752563796363702011-04-18T14:03:47.341+00:002011-04-18T14:03:47.341+00:00I know any number of '62 "adherents"...I know any number of '62 "adherents" who are more than willing to talk about the inadequacies of the liturgical books that they find themselves having to use, more or less. However, if by "total inadequacy" you mean to say that they should prefer to stay home on Sundays, then I'm going to disagree with you.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-77529375047633349802011-04-18T11:06:34.285+00:002011-04-18T11:06:34.285+00:00I agree. I find it utterly distasteful that RC ...I agree. I find it utterly distasteful that RC ''traditionalists'' (and some Papalist Anglicans) have the audacity to render obeisance to Pacelli and his damnable innovations and yet fondly suppose that they are more traditional than the rest of their church. Even worse when this tendency is in reverse, and you find Traddies celebrating Old Holy Week under the supposed protection and ratification of Papal authority.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-72295857976299862542011-04-18T07:28:33.412+00:002011-04-18T07:28:33.412+00:00Rubricarius,
You ask why these people "cheat...Rubricarius,<br /><br />You ask why these people "cheat" and don't use the complete old Holy Week. The answer is Rome. The "experts" at the Ecclesia Dei commission only want to see 1962 because for them that is the traditional Mass in its pure form. First, these "experts" do not know how to say the 62 mass correctly. These "experts" are ignorant of the changes; and if they do admit that they existed, it was for the better. <br /><br />They are also some in the traditional communities who think that only Holy Week was touched and that the Breviary and the other parts of the Mass only underwent minor changes.<br /><br />May God deliver us from these people and free the traditional Mass!Andrénoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-41240630092830677502011-04-18T01:12:26.275+00:002011-04-18T01:12:26.275+00:00I attended Mass today at the Institute of Christ t...I attended Mass today at the Institute of Christ the King, hopeful that I might actually see the full pre-Pius XII Palm Sunday. Instead, I saw a hybrid that I had never seen before. The blessing of palms was the 1956 form, preceded by the asperges. The old form of kissing the palm and the priest's hand was observed. The priest was incensed at the end of the gospel. The subdeacon himself carried an unveiled cross, and at the end of the procession the ceremony at the door of the church was performed exactly as the ancient rite with the double choir Gloria Laus, knocking on the door, and the re-entrance antiphon sung. <br /><br />The Mass had the following "tweaks":<br />- prayers at the foot of the altar were said<br />- The passion began at the truncated point in the 1956 form, however there was the Munda Cor by the deacon, incense of the gospel book, and Altera autem die portion sung to the ancient melody<br />-Second Confetior <br />-Benedicamus Domino sung instead of Ite Missa Est<br />-Last Gospel<br /><br />Now if you are going to go this far, why not go all the way? I know the Institute priests know all the background of these reformed rites...why do they not just use the old Holy Week?<br /><br />I love your website and read the blog as often as I can. Verry well done and informative. Have you ever considered doing a form of the ordo for the Monastic Breviary?Davus_Carolusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-71664685840931062802011-04-18T00:49:53.850+00:002011-04-18T00:49:53.850+00:00My experience is that they do? Many realise that 1...My experience is that they do? Many realise that 1962 is an unfortunate compromise. Those that use it do so because they want to go along with the Holy Father, whilst hankering after a better year.Juventutem Londonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00256922371357529056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-34161150121325796812011-04-17T22:49:44.323+00:002011-04-17T22:49:44.323+00:00Paul,
It would at least be a start if these peopl...Paul,<br /><br />It would at least be a start if these people would have the honesty to admit the total inadequacy of the pernicious rubbish they dish up in the name of supposed 'Tradition'.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-14810018193272640312011-04-17T22:40:05.072+00:002011-04-17T22:40:05.072+00:00Why do you suggest that everyone who uses the '...Why do you suggest that everyone who uses the '62 books thinks they're wonderful? I assure you that such isn't the case.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.com