tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post5607133418559858871..comments2024-03-25T11:45:15.757+00:00Comments on The Saint Lawrence Press Blog: Vigil of the EpiphanyRubricariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-75501210088364109172012-01-12T17:26:30.025+00:002012-01-12T17:26:30.025+00:00(continues...)
We do have a situation where a Vigi...(continues...)<br />We do have a situation where a Vigil, with no greater feast on it – although, anciently in England, the Octave day of S Thomas the Martyr will have been major enough to raise the rank – is now ordered to be celebrated in white. <br /><br />I wonder when the move to celebrating the Vigil in white occurred (assuming there was a move). Was it late in the day after – or do I mean at? – Trent and the Missal of Pius V? Before that, there was huge variation in practice across different places. The colour of one day sandwiched between two great feasts could easily have been a non-issue. <br /><br />Did they just decide to leave the day white as it had been, and was going to be, for convenience? Did an old custom get mislaid? <br /><br />I admit the vigil of Penetecost starts with mattins in white, but there is an older tradition that Eastertide is 50 days. That is not itself the earliest tradition, but it is the tradition now. There is no such authentic rule that Christmass lasts for a certain period beyond its octave, except for the de facto gap that appeared after removing the octaves in 1955 <br />Perhaps on analogy with that, this vigil was put into white too, or it provided an excuse that a variation did not matter. <br />The pattern of Sundays only resumes after the Epiphany – although that is, I hope I am right in saying, one of the Eastern feasts imported into the West along with the Tranfiguration as part of the reciprocal deal. I may be wrong, but if so, it was imported earlier, having previously not existed in the West. <br /><br />Without it, how would the Sundays resume after Christmas? I don’t know, but I presume like the East, there would be Sundays after Pentecost again. Epiphany arrrived before Advent. <br /><br />Think about it another way, without Epiphany, would we think there were twelve days of Christmass? I think we would just see the octave days of major feasts as usual, supplanting some minor Sundays, before the general pattern resumed. <br /><br />As our blog host says, the liturgy contains layers upon layers.Acolytusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-83641806896517710342012-01-12T17:25:54.470+00:002012-01-12T17:25:54.470+00:00I want to argue it was not a festal period without...I want to argue it was not a festal period without the Octave days, and the absence of a Sunday mass is interesting. Of course, you have covered this absence in your first remarks back in ’09, which are worth re-reading <br /><br />But I want to ask when did the Vigil of Epiphany on Sunday get replaced by the Octaves days – I am not sure that was clear to me.<br /><br />In the east, the Vigil of the Epiphany is still on a par with that of Christmass. Both are occasions when the Liturgy of S Basil must be celebrated if it is not on the following feast. The rule is exactly the same. Of course, Orthodoxy does not observe colour rules at this time. <br /><br />When did the Vigil move to Sunday disconnected from the epiphany itself?<br /><br />Why? How? Was it ever violet? Surely it must once have been. Maybe we are not going to find a source that explains the colour. <br /><br />I intend to argue from recent Byzantine practice. I presume that is okay, due to the many icons on this blog. <br /><br />I take the view that there is no such thing as a Christmass season, neither in the past nor in the Missal and Breviary before 1955. There is a Christmass octave and there Christmass ends. After that, there is the period before Epiphany and occupied by the octave days of the succeeding feasts. <br /><br />It is only the octave days that extend the ‘festive’ period to ‘twelve days of Christmass’. Without them, there would only be an octave.<br /><br />The Byzantine practice is that the Sundays before and after Christmass are still numbered from the preceding Pentecost. No Advent and no after Epiphany. I take that to be significant. It is also noticeable that the Epiphany vigil contains texts from the Circumcision. <br /><br />You have said before now that the ordinary succession of Sundays is suspended at this time. Before 1911two Sundays after Christmass day could be occupied successively by a feast and its Octave day. <br /><br />I argue that Christmas is the Sunday of this unusual time, and so I suppose, the Circumcision, its octave day, is another one, and, like a normal Sunday, its texts can be used on free days later the same week.Acolytusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-6824323493997227062012-01-12T17:25:53.173+00:002012-01-12T17:25:53.173+00:00I want to argue it was not a festal period without...I want to argue it was not a festal period without the Octave days, and the absence of a Sunday mass is interesting. Of course, you have covered this absence in your first remarks back in ’09, which are worth re-reading <br /><br />But I want to ask when did the Vigil of Epiphany on Sunday get replaced by the Octaves days – I am not sure that was clear to me.<br /><br />In the east, the Vigil of the Epiphany is still on a par with that of Christmass. Both are occasions when the Liturgy of S Basil must be celebrated if it is not on the following feast. The rule is exactly the same. Of course, Orthodoxy does not observe colour rules at this time. <br /><br />When did the Vigil move to Sunday disconnected from the epiphany itself?<br /><br />Why? How? Was it ever violet? Surely it must once have been. Maybe we are not going to find a source that explains the colour. <br /><br />I intend to argue from recent Byzantine practice. I presume that is okay, due to the many icons on this blog. <br /><br />I take the view that there is no such thing as a Christmass season, neither in the past nor in the Missal and Breviary before 1955. There is a Christmass octave and there Christmass ends. After that, there is the period before Epiphany and occupied by the octave days of the succeeding feasts. <br /><br />It is only the octave days that extend the ‘festive’ period to ‘twelve days of Christmass’. Without them, there would only be an octave.<br /><br />The Byzantine practice is that the Sundays before and after Christmass are still numbered from the preceding Pentecost. No Advent and no after Epiphany. I take that to be significant. It is also noticeable that the Epiphany vigil contains texts from the Circumcision. <br /><br />You have said before now that the ordinary succession of Sundays is suspended at this time. Before 1911two Sundays after Christmass day could be occupied successively by a feast and its Octave day. <br /><br />I argue that Christmas is the Sunday of this unusual time, and so I suppose, the Circumcision, its octave day, is another one, and, like a normal Sunday, its texts can be used on free days later the same week.Acolytusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-88838628401315692982012-01-07T08:26:00.912+00:002012-01-07T08:26:00.912+00:00Anonymous,
I suspect rather like the Vigil of the...Anonymous,<br /><br />I suspect rather like the Vigil of the Ascension that as it is falling in a festive period white is used.<br /><br />In Sarum when the Vigil of the Epiphany fell on a weekday the Gloria and Creed were omitted.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8669950994040167422.post-2240957644108166312012-01-06T18:15:21.951+00:002012-01-06T18:15:21.951+00:00So, if this fell on a Sunday, (I mean of course, o...So, if this fell on a Sunday, (I mean of course, one before 1911), this would be the Sunday rite - a vigil like Xmass. ? If so, why not done in violet? <br /><br />In England, as I take it, we don't need to worry, since the Octave of S Thomas the Martyr would [have been] celebrated, or was that only in Sarum?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com